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Filmmaker, author and journalist Antony Loewenstein documents how Israel has used Gaza as a weapons showcase. Spyware, killer drones, robot dogs and other weapons are debuted in Gaza and field-tested on the civilian population, demonstrating their effectiveness to regimes around the world that await their chance to purchase them.<\/p>\n
Loewenstein joins host Chris Hedges on this episode of\u00a0The Chris Hedges Report<\/em>\u00a0to chronicle what he has learned from writing\u00a0The Palestine Laboratory: How Israel Exports the Technology of Occupation Around the World<\/a><\/em>\u00a0and producing\u00a0The Palestine Laboratory<\/a><\/em>, a documentary based on the book.<\/p>\n \u201cI think the whole idea of what Israel\u2026has been showing the world, I say two things. One, what weapons you can use to murder, kill, target Palestinians but also how to get away with it. I think Israel sells that concept,\u201d Loewenstein explains.<\/p>\n As spyware companies like\u00a0Pegasus<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0Paragon<\/a>\u00a0and arms companies like\u00a0Elbit<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0Rafael<\/a>\u00a0see business boom, Loewenstein argues countries have a moral imperative to end trading with Israel. These same technologies perpetuating the genocide in Gaza, Loewenstein explains, will come back to haunt the citizenry of purchasing countries.<\/p>\n \u201cAll these governments around the world, whether they\u2019re so-called democratic or repressive, are obsessed with these tools. They can\u2019t give them up. They\u2019re desperate to listen to their opponents, to the journalists, to activists,\u201d Loewenstein remarks.<\/p>\n \u201cIt\u2019s very hard for these regimes to give them up because there\u2019s no regulation. There\u2019s just none. It just doesn\u2019t exist.\u201d<\/p>\n The film series,\u00a0The Palestine Laboratory<\/a><\/em>, adapted from Antony Loewenstein\u2019s book of the same name and broadcast on\u00a0Al Jazeera English<\/em>, documents how Israel uses Palestinians trapped in Gaza and the West Bank as a weapons testing laboratory before selling these weapons systems.<\/p>\n Israeli drones, surveillance technology including spyware, facial recognition software, and biometric gathering infrastructure, along with smart fences, experimental bombs, AI-controlled machine guns missiles and satellites are used around the globe by governments seeking to control their own populations and those attempting to cross their borders.<\/p>\n Israel is the 9th biggest weapons producer in the world.<\/p>\n The genocide in Gaza has only fueled its booming arms industry. The Palestinians are the human laboratory rats used by the Israeli military intelligence services and arms and technology industries to test out its weapons systems and surveillance technology. Once used on a captive population in Gaza, often with lethal results, these weapons and technologies are certified as \u201cbattle-tested\u201d and sold.<\/p>\n Israel sells its technology and weapons to an estimated 130 nations, including military dictatorships in Asia and Latin America. Annual Israeli arms sales reached a new record in 2024, for the fourth consecutive year, amounting to double the value of exports of five years ago. Weapons exports totaled nearly $14.8 billion last year, up from $13 billion in 2023 \u2014 the previous record high. Between 2018 and 2020, that number hovered between $7.5 billion and $8.5 billion.<\/p>\n Israel\u2019s weapons trade is also about selling an idea, one embraced by the climate fortresses in Europe and the United States. Populations, whether Palestinian or North African migrants, considered superfluous can be trapped, monitored and controlled with Israeli weapons and technologies.<\/p>\n Joining me to discuss this use of Palestinians as human guinea pigs for the Israeli weapons and technology industry and the consequences for the rest of us is Antony Loewenstein, author of\u00a0The Palestine Laboratory: How Israel Exports the Technology of Occupation Around the World<\/a><\/em>.<\/p>\n So Antony, many of the weapons systems, surveillance systems, technologies that you write about in the book and that you document in the film are now ubiquitous on the Mexican border. You have a scene in the film where Sikh farmers are protesting and they\u2019re suddenly over their heads are Israeli drones firing tear gas canisters.<\/p>\n And then after that I really want to talk about the very sophisticated surveillance technology that\u2019s been used on Palestinians and not just\u00a0Pegasus<\/a>\u00a0as you point out there are many systems of monitoring the facial recognition everything else but let\u2019s start with these technologies that have been first used in places like Gaza and the West Bank, that we are now part of our own landscape.<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n You know, one of the reasons I wrote the book,\u00a0The Palestine Laboratory<\/em>, initially, which came out in May 23 [2023], which obviously was before October 7, was to show that Israel for decades, and this started long before 9\/11, I really argue that it started in 1948, if not before, it accelerated after \u201867 when Israel took control, of course, of the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, where they had far more Palestinians to control or manage, so to speak, that the huge amounts of technology they were using, as you say in the modern era, we\u2019re talking about drones in Gaza since October 7, quadcopters, killer drones essentially, AI [artificial intelligence]-enabled warfare.<\/p>\n I mean, the whole argument of using AI for warfare, of course, those who argue for it say it makes war cleaner and nicer when in fact the reality was, as we saw in Gaza, and this came from sources that I spoke to within Israel who were saying the aim wasn\u2019t pinpoint targeting, it was mass destruction.<\/p>\n I mean, clearly we saw that in the first months especially, that huge amounts of Palestinians, the vast, vast, vast majority of were civilians, men, women and children, were killed, vast areas destroyed. And a lot of the so-called targeting, when I talk about targeting, I\u2019m talking about, in Israel, this is what Israel claims, which I question, were going after Hamas leaders of any rank from the lowest to the highest.<\/p>\n The problem is that Israel views anyone who\u2019s associated with Hamas in Gaza as a terrorist when the fact is the vast, vast majority have nothing to do with military infrastructure. They may be working in a government building or a government office. And Hamas has controlled Gaza for many years before October 7, and frankly still does in at least half of the territory.<\/p>\n So AI warfare, and I have this scene in the film by one of the journalists who broke this story, Meron Rapoport, who essentially says, and I\u2019m paraphrasing him, and for those who don\u2019t understand this, when an Israeli journalist wants to report a story on anything to do with military or intelligence, it needs to be approved by an Israeli censor.<\/p>\n There\u2019s no other Western country in the world where this is required. So they submit a story, TV, print, online, radio, whatever it may be, and it may be approved or it may not be approved. I mean, it\u2019s an insane situation, utterly draconian and authoritarian.<\/p>\n And this story on AI was approved, it was therefore published and got a lot of attention, but he said one of the reasons he thought it had been approved was because the Israeli military wanted the world to see what they had been doing in Gaza and therefore other countries may want to buy it. And I think the whole idea of what Israel \u2014 again, long before October 7 but certainly since \u2014 has been showing the world, I say two things. One, yes, what weapons you can use to murder, kill, target Palestinians but also how to get away with it.<\/p>\n I think Israel sells that concept. And since October 7, frankly, I would argue that Israel has gotten away with it. There\u2019s no, and we can talk about the slow public opinion globally, which is turning against Israel, to be sure. But in terms of Western governments, with a few exceptions, it\u2019s been rock solid.<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n I want to talk about AI because it\u2019s built, as you write in the book and as you document in the film, on very sophisticated profiles that are gathered about Palestinians. You can explain, I forget, it\u2019s wolf something, red wolf and something else, I forget. But what\u2019s interesting is that then those profiles are fed to AI.<\/p>\n So there\u2019s no human decision there. This may be, I may be paraphrasing, but what you\u2019re doing is killing people for suspected intentions. You\u2019re not actually targeting or killing people for anything that they\u2019ve done. But let\u2019s talk about the systems of monitoring, control, and surveillance, because they\u2019re extremely sophisticated and extremely detailed. And again, these systems are being picked up by all sorts of governments around the world. But tell us how they work.<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n So there\u2019s two systems briefly. In the West Bank, what you are talking about is\u00a0Red Wolf<\/a>, Blue Wolf. Essentially, it\u2019s a system where Israeli soldiers which are maintaining the occupation have a system on their phone. They document every day details of Palestinians. So that could be what they do, where they go, what they say, where they work, what they look like. They take photos of their faces. It\u2019s put into a database.<\/p>\n Not that anyone has access to that, of course, but it\u2019s a database that essentially is monitoring and documenting every single Palestinian without the knowledge of the Palestinians themselves but it impacts if they want to, for example, go from point A to point B.<\/p>\n A Palestinian might want to go outside the country to study in the US, which is unlikely now under Trump, but study somewhere outside Palestine. But it requires Israeli permission to do so, to get a permit to leave and often they are rejected. And the reason Israel will give is security reasons, which is usually nonsense.<\/p>\n And essentially that\u2019s been gathered based on some random piece of information that Israel has gained from this intelligence gathering. In Gaza, after October 7, Israel was clearly desperate on revenge. There\u2019s no other way to put it. And what they had been gaining for years of gathering intelligence on Palestinians in Gaza, not just Hamas, but any Palestinian, there was roughly 2.3 million Palestinians in the territory, far less now of course, and they would be gathering a range of information.<\/p>\n If any Palestinian wanted to leave Gaza before October 7th, and I had some friends who wanted to leave to study, to work, you needed to go through this insane process of permissions and then interrogation by Israel, which often Israelis would ask, even friends of mine, they said no.<\/p>\n Will you be a spy for us? If you do, we\u2019ll give you more permission. It\u2019s a deeply ugly occupation. So when October 7 happened, Israel was desperate for new targets. Who are we going to bomb? Who are we going to attack? Who are we going to get revenge on? And as you say, they\u2019re fed into an AI system, which was importantly backed by a cloud system supported by Silicon Valley companies \u2014 Amazon, Google, and others.<\/p>\n Israel could not survive this system without Silicon Valley help. And that accelerated after October 7. Microsoft, Palantir, all these firms have offered and provided massive cloud space because Israel wants to save and document all this information about all Palestinians in Gaza, essentially.<\/p>\n So it\u2019s fed into a system and it spits out so-called targets. And as you say, as far as we know, and of course, there\u2019s never been an open and transparent investigation into how the system works, there is maybe a 15 to 20 second human interaction.<\/p>\n A target appears on someone\u2019s screen, they say yes or no. Does that person live, Chris, or does that person die? And what we saw after October 7 was mass destruction. This idea that Israel was arguing falsely from the beginning, clearly now we know it was complete bullshit, is that they were looking for mass targets. They were looking for mass destruction.<\/p>\n As we say in the film, or one of the journalists talks about it, whereas before legally Israeli lawyers would give permission to maybe go after a Hamas leader and kill five or six or seven civilians. That was justified under collateral damage, a term that I never used because I think it\u2019s an insanely disgusting one. Killing civilians, basically.<\/p>\n After October 7, the legal limits were off. You could go after or justify going after some alleged Hamas leader, militant Hamas member, whoever it may be and therefore justify killing hundreds of civilians, including their families, who have nothing to do with anything.<\/p>\n So AI targeting has become in Israel or Gaza ubiquitous. And I know that other countries will want to use the same system and want to get advice from Israel on how to do it, including, which is why I think the Palantirs, the Amazons, the Googles and others were so keen to provide that service of cloud support for Israel.<\/p>\n The money for them wasn\u2019t that huge. Israel is a relatively small country. There are many countries with bigger populations. But they used it also as a model to show what massive cloud services can do in the act of mass killing and mass targeting. And finally, those companies to me are legally liable. No question about that in their direct involvement and complicity in genocide.<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n Let\u2019s talk about cameras. So you have scenes in Hebron where, I mean, they\u2019re putting cameras on rooftops, there are sensors in the ground. They even have a shot at one point of, I don\u2019t know whether it fires grenades or whatever it is.<\/p>\n Talk a little bit about that system. So it\u2019s not just that they\u2019re tracking and have profiles, but they\u2019re also just constantly surveilling in real time.<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n Well in a place like Hebron, which, for those who don\u2019t know, is a city in the West Bank, which is probably the most extreme example of apartheid, where in the centre of the city you have hundreds of Israeli settlers, fundamentalists, the most extreme genocidal fanatics, many of whom have moved in fact from the US and Australia to be there, and thousands and thousands and thousands of Palestinians.<\/p>\n So in that tiny tinderbox, you have a combination of cameras put in by the Israeli military and different cameras put in by the Israeli settlers. So there\u2019s two different systems. And we have in there\u00a0Issa Amro<\/a>, who\u2019s an incredibly brave Palestinian activist. He lives there. He refuses to be kicked out. Eventually, I fear he will have no choice.<\/p>\n But he has remained there steadfast to stay, to document, to talk about what\u2019s going on. And yes, there\u2019s a combination of monitoring people\u2019s movements, but also it\u2019s gathering biometric data about an individual, which goes back to what I said before, that Israel is gathering all this information, putting it into a huge database, it\u2019s the architecture of control.<\/p>\n And I think what a lot of people who don\u2019t know how the occupation works need to realise that this is what can decide whether you have any kind of freedom to go from a village to another town. Israeli soldiers will block you going if they have some information on their phone when you get to a checkpoint that says this person\u2019s a security threat, which in 99.9% of cases complete bollocks of course, but that\u2019s what the soldiers are seeing.<\/p>\n It\u2019s a system that by definition dehumanises Palestinians. So in Hebron itself, it\u2019s at its most extreme, the most extreme example of dozens, if not hundreds of cameras impacting people\u2019s ability to get even to their own homes. I mean, Hebron itself, and some people will have maybe seen this footage, not just in my film, but in general.<\/p>\n In the major parts of the old town where Palestinians used to live and thrive, all the doors have been essentially blocked off. Palestinians can\u2019t get into their own homes. They can\u2019t walk down their own streets. I mean, there\u2019s no greater example of what apartheid is when you literally can\u2019t walk down your own street.<\/p>\n While an Israeli settler who may well have moved from New York last week or Sydney can. So Hebron, within the West Bank, that is the laboratory. There\u2019s actually a film a few years ago made about this very subject, not mine, but a different Israeli filmmaker, which said that Hebron is the model for Israel.<\/p>\n They test various forms of control within Hebron, which then export around the West Bank. And you see that when you go there, it\u2019s the most extreme form of… I mean, when you go there, it\u2019s completely suffocating. I\u2019m a visitor. I don\u2019t live there. I\u2019m not comparing myself at all to a Palestinian who has to suffer that every day.<\/p>\n And the impact of that, Chris, is, of course, the many Palestinians have left, which makes sense, because you cannot… How do you live in that hothouse 24\/7. It\u2019s kind of impossible, which is exactly what the Israeli settlers want.<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n Let\u2019s talk about not just filming, but these cameras based on movements, there\u2019s a description where somebody said, you may have had a fight with your brother or something and walk out in the street and you appear angry. Then these systems react.<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah. One of the things, that was Mona Shtaya, who\u2019s a Palestinian activist from Ramallah, who essentially was saying that what these systems do is they\u2019re able to, I mean, in some ways it plays into the most ugly stereotypes of how many in the West and Israel view Arabs. They\u2019re always angry. This is how the argument goes. They\u2019re always angry. They\u2019re always pissed off about something. And therefore they\u2019re a threat to us.<\/p>\n This is how the language or the ideology works. And these systems essentially, and she says, and it\u2019s an important part of this conversation, essentially says that we need to, we being Palestinians, therefore need to look not angry, kind of normal, kind of not pissed off, which of course also actually says impacts what you can write on social media.<\/p>\n If you are seen to be angry, if you are seen to be critical of Israel, and there\u2019s lots of examples, right, of huge amounts of Palestinian civilians and journalists being arrested for what I would call pre-crime. They haven\u2019t killed anyone, they haven\u2019t harmed anyone.<\/p>\n They may write something critical of Israeli occupation and the impact of post-October 7 and many Palestinian friends of mine who still live in Palestine say we have self-censored. We\u2019ve self-censored ourselves hugely because we are scared of speaking honestly about what we are thinking, what we are feeling and that\u2019s the impact, that\u2019s the impact of what dehumanisation is.<\/p>\n So yes, you\u2019re right, cameras can determine people\u2019s supposed feelings, their anger, and therefore can determine their freedom of movement. But it\u2019s actually worse than that. It is also one\u2019s online presence. And I think in the film she calls it digital orientalism or digital colonialism, which is essentially what it is. That on paper you have freedom to write on Facebook or TikTok or whatever, but actually in practice you don\u2019t because the impact of that can put you in jail or can make you suffer by the Israelis.<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n Let\u2019s talk about the weapons themselves. You focus on\u00a0Elbit<\/a>. You go to arms fairs where Israel is selling these weapons. Let\u2019s talk a little bit about those weapons and how they\u2019re used in places like Gaza.<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n In the film we say that Israel is the ninth biggest arms dealer in the world. Actually, they\u2019ve become the eighth now. The eighth biggest arms dealer in the world. They\u2019re actually growing. And I suspect when we get the figures for 2025, which we\u2019ll get next year, my guess is the figures will be higher again.<\/p>\n And there are a handful of major companies and smaller companies. There\u2019s the Elbits, the\u00a0Rafaels<\/a>\u00a0and others who appear at global arms fairs, including many in the Arab world. There\u2019s been lots of examples, including since October 7, of these companies proudly parading themselves, really, and showing, including, I mean, it\u2019s sort of remarkable to see it\u2019s often these companies now are so brazen about showing videos of their weapons being used and tested in Gaza on civilians.<\/p>\n I mean, they say they\u2019re terrorists, but in majority cases they\u2019re not, to say they work, they\u2019re battle tested and that is seen as appealing to many, many nations around the world. One of the things about these companies is, and we saw this in the film too, that Elbit is a weapons company but it\u2019s also a surveillance company.<\/p>\n So along the US-Mexico border you have all these, in Arizona where I was last year, there were all these surveillance towers that essentially are used to both \u201cmonitor migrants\u201d but also Native Americans who are indigenous to that land.<\/p>\n And since Trump has come in, those Elbit systems are now being incorporated with\u00a0Anduril<\/a>, the American so-called defense company, to try to, I guess, even solidify even stronger the US-Mexico border.<\/p>\n You know, these companies, Chris, are growing and surging. And after October 7, there was a realization amongst many in Israel, even though there\u2019s been no real tangible arms sanctions on Israel that have been of any significance.<\/p>\n Increasingly Israel realises that they have to build the weapons themselves within their own country. In other words, the majority of weapons they\u2019ve been getting have come from the US and Germany, particularly since October 7. And Israel has realised in the fear that they get boycotted by someone, the US, hard to imagine now, but at some point that they have the weapons they need in their view themselves, that they build themselves.<\/p>\n And so Elbit and others are increasingly building more factories within Israel itself to try to make themselves more self-reliant. I read a lot of the Israeli business press for my sins. And although there\u2019s been in the last few months some concerns, you know, Spain in Europe at least, has been one of the more critical nations around the Gaza genocide and has cancelled around one billion US dollars of contracts with the Israeli government, which was quite significant.<\/p>\n I mean, they shouldn\u2019t have organised them in the first place, but nonetheless they did. And that was the first time, Chris, that I can remember in living memory that there was some concern in the Israeli arms industry that maybe, just maybe, this surging year-on-year increase in profits could be challenged or arrested.<\/p>\n And what that showed to me is very clear. A lot of countries have a lot of power to seriously challenge that massively profitable industry if they choose to use it. And the vast majority of nations still have not.<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n Can you detail some of the weapons they\u2019ve tested out on Palestinians? I know you had pictures of, I think they were kind of remote controlled mortars, of course you had drones, but what are some of the cutting edge weapon systems that have been used against the Palestinians in Gaza?<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n There\u2019s been a number. Israel has been using quadcopters, essentially killer drones, killing huge amounts of…<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n Explain how a quadcopter works, what its capabilities are. There are pictures you have, I guess they have machine guns, but just explain what they can do and how they work.<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n Exactly. So these are drones, people know what drones look like, they are flying munitions essentially, they often have machine guns attached to them, they\u2019re able to fly drones relatively stable and can shoot people, kill people, target people, target huge amounts of civilians and there\u2019s vast amounts of evidence that that\u2019s been happening in the last two years.<\/p>\n There\u2019s been increasing use of robot dogs which has been present in when that was being tested along the US-Mexico border was tested along the Israel-Gaza border before October 7. It\u2019s been used mostly to monitor rather than to kill people, often being sent into buildings to try to gather intelligence.<\/p>\n I mean the AI warfare we talked about but that\u2019s been a huge massive use of weaponry both in terms of munitions but also intelligence gathering. And it\u2019s worth saying this, that there\u2019s an American drone company called\u00a0Skydio<\/a>\u00a0that sent Israel drones after October 7. And Israel used them in Gaza, and now many, many American cities have these drones flying above them day in, day out.<\/p>\n Now, I\u2019m not saying they\u2019ve solely been battle tested in Palestine. They existed before October 7. But certainly they have a role. They\u2019re a large American company, and they get barely any media coverage whatsoever.<\/p>\n So huge amounts of American cities use these drones now, often by police forces to monitor and often I think protests and so-called civil unrest. And another element that\u2019s been really terrifying for many Palestinian friends of mine in Gaza, and this is something we show in the film that has happened in the West Bank before, but it accelerated in Gaza, is drones suddenly appear at night time, emitting sounds of babies crying.<\/p>\n Someone walks out of their tent, what is going on, where is this coming from? This sound is coming from a speaker on a drone. Someone comes out of their tent or a house or whatever they live in in Gaza and then the person is killed. There\u2019s huge amounts of documented evidence of this. This is on one hand psychological terror but also actual terror, what can anyone say about that?<\/p>\n Just the level of ugliness and hatred and I mean, one tries to get into the mind of someone who would design that, it\u2019s kind of impossible if you\u2019re a human, decent person, That\u2019s some of the weapons, Chris. There are many others, and it\u2019s also worth saying that although Israel has been testing many weapons, many other countries have been looking to what Israel is doing and working with them to work for their own militaries.<\/p>\n I\u2019m talking particularly about many Western countries, the Americans, British, Australians and others have been working alongside the Israelis in different ways, some more than others, of course the Americans are more central than the others, the Germans.<\/p>\n Yeah, I mean I think for anyone who is sane, who looks at what\u2019s been going on in Gaza, we say this should be an abomination and something that we oppose, but actually what I\u2019m hearing privately is many countries, even those that oppose what Israel has been doing, privately, actually, there\u2019s a degree of admiration, particularly in the Arab world.<\/p>\n When I say the Arab world, Arab elites. Now, it\u2019s no secret that the Arab elites have hated Palestinians forever. That\u2019s not exactly a secret. But since October 7, and there was a Washington Post report a few weeks ago that confirmed this, although I\u2019ve heard this from elsewhere too, military-to-military relations between Israel and Arab states increased after October 7. Not decreased, increased.<\/p>\n Arab countries in the 2024 Israeli arms sales deals were the second biggest proportion of buyers of Israeli, particularly surveillance tech. They love the stuff. The Abraham Accords that Trump trumpets is really an arms deal. It\u2019s always been an arms deal. And if Saudi and Israel and America sign a so-called normalisation deal, a lot of that is because Saudi wants certain weapons.<\/p>\n It\u2019s from Israel and the US. That\u2019s all it\u2019s about. So, yeah, I mean, the Israeli arms industry, I should also finish just by saying, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s an industry that cannot be economically targeted. What I said before, the Spanish cancelling $1 billion of contracts shows it\u2019s possible. It\u2019s very, very possible if countries step up.<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n Let\u2019s talk about Pegasus.<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n Pegasus<\/a>\u00a0got known years ago as this sort of infamous phone hacking tool, essentially, where an intelligence service or a government buys this tool. They then put it onto, usually, a dissident or journalist\u2019s phone. Often it used to be through a text message, now it\u2019s through… It doesn\u2019t even need that. All the intelligence service needs is your phone number. That\u2019s all it needs, your cell number.<\/p>\n It was hugely successful for Pegasus, as I talk about in the book and we talk a bit about in the film as well, in some ways this is what led me to write the book, Chris. I started this years ago, I was so frustrated that so much of the Western press coverage of this story focused on this supposedly rogue Israeli company,\u00a0NSO Group<\/a>, selling all this horrible technology to terrible regimes.<\/p>\n Now that\u2019s not inherently untrue, but what most of the Western media coverage ignored, which was the elephant in the room, which was NSO Group essentially was an arm of the Israeli state. Yes, it\u2019s a private company on paper, but essentially Netanyahu was using that as almost like a form of spyware diplomacy.<\/p>\n He was going around the world selling it to Rwanda and India and Hungary, etc. The last few years during the Biden era, the company had sanctions put on them. Their business decreased, but they\u2019re still selling to many repressive regimes. In fact, just this month, November 2025, the company has been sold to an American consortium led by some major figures in Hollywood, go figure.<\/p>\n And one of its key leaders now, so to speak, is\u00a0David Friedman<\/a>, the former American ambassador to Israel appointed by Trump 1.0. There was a piece in the Washington Post just this week interviewing him, talking about this product, saying, we\u2019re very optimistic. Sure, there were some mistakes made in the past but we\u2019re looking forward to the future and we very much hope that sanctions are lifted because there\u2019s still sanctions.<\/p>\n Trump has not lifted sanctions on NSO Group, which actually surprised me because the company spent, Chris, millions and millions on lobbying in Washington, which didn\u2019t really work. My guess is now there\u2019s a good chance that will be lifted. And therefore what the vision of NSO Group is partnering with the US government, US law enforcement, FBI, ICE, etc.<\/p>\n But it\u2019s worth saying Pegasus is the tip of the iceberg. Pegasus in some ways is the most infamous case, but there are many other examples like\u00a0Paragon<\/a>\u00a0and others. These are basically the most powerful weapons in the world that can control everything on your phone without you knowing.<\/p>\n And they threaten, as I show in the book, huge amounts of people in often states, from India to elsewhere, where if you\u2019re a human rights activist or a lawyer, if all your details on your phone from clients or sources is taken, it\u2019s a pretty legitimate question about how problematic that is.<\/p>\n We spent time in the film in Mexico, and Mexico has become the most obsessive use of Pegasus in the world. Like, they\u2019re obsessed with it. And still using it now under the left-wing and right-wing governments there. So in the end, to be honest, the problem is not so much Pegasus. The problem is that much of the world, Chris, doesn\u2019t want to regulate these damn tools. That\u2019s the problem.<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n Why were the sanctions put on?<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n Well, the Biden administration claimed it was because they were concerned about human rights abuses by Pegasus, by NSO Group, the company. There were examples of Pegasus appearing on US diplomat phones in Africa.<\/p>\n And that was what led to certain forces in the Biden administration putting sanctions on the company. Now, I didn\u2019t inherently oppose those sanctions, I think that was fine at the time. I saw the sanctions on NSO Group in a much more cynical way. There was a sense that many of the American defence sector in the spyware industry were pissed off, frankly, that Israeli companies were getting business over them.<\/p>\n This was an attempt by Washington to give a leg up to American spyware companies. But here we are, year one of the Trump administration and still Israeli companies are in the top three most popularly used spyware firms because, again, it comes to the same point.<\/p>\n All these governments around the world, Chris, whether they\u2019re so-called democratic or repressive, are obsessed with these tools. They can\u2019t give them up. They\u2019re desperate to listen to their opponents, to the journalists, to activists. It\u2019s very hard for these regimes to give them up because there\u2019s no regulation. There\u2019s just none. It just doesn\u2019t exist.<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n Well, wasn\u2019t Pegasus used on the phone of\u00a0Jamal Khashoggi<\/a>, do I have that right?<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n Absolutely. Indeed. Jamal Khashoggi, the Saudi Washington Post columnist, it was used on members of his family, of his partner, both before his murder by the Saudis and after. I mean, let\u2019s be clear, that didn\u2019t cause any sanctions on NSO Group. It wasn\u2019t the core sanctions at all at the time. And, you know, for a short time, it wasn\u2019t clear whether the Israelis and the Saudis would continue their business on that, but shock horror they did.<\/p>\n I mean, this is the whole myth about, we\u2019ve only, well, at least those who advocate for this, let\u2019s look forward to the day where Saudi and Israel are best of friends. Listen, they\u2019ve been friends for years. It\u2019s just, it hasn\u2019t been signed on the White House lawn. They\u2019re friends. They\u2019re very, very good friends. And I think in years to come, what I see is the so-called Middle East future, how they view it, is Saudi and Israel as leading an autocratic future. That\u2019s the vision.<\/p>\n That\u2019s the Trump vision really, UAE [United Arab Emirates], Saudi and Israel leading an autocratic-style, occupation-friendly Middle East. I mean, that\u2019s where this is going. And I mean, they already exist now and the vision so-called for Gaza is that, right? I mean, this is what the so-called 20 point peace plan partly is. It\u2019s about imposing and\u00a0Jared Kushner<\/a>\u00a0has talked about this proudly.<\/p>\n Look at a place like Dubai. If only we could have Dubai here in Gaza. As if a city built, I mean, as you would know, Abu Dhabi and Dubai in the UAE, apart from the fact it\u2019s a regime supporting another genocide in Sudan, putting that aside, Dubai and Abu Dhabi are a city built by slaves from South Asia, maintained by slaves. I mean, it\u2019s a slave environment.<\/p>\n I have friends of mine in the South Asian community who have campaigned for years against all these South Asian workers coming from Sri Lanka and Bangladesh and others who go to Dubai and Abu Dhabi, built this city up in this glittering metropolis. But actually they\u2019re treated like not just second class citizens but slaves. If that\u2019s the vision for Gaza, then God help us.<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n One of the points you make in the book and the film is that because many states, especially like India, buy so many weapon systems from Israel, they do Israel\u2019s bidding on the international stage. So traditionally India has stood from the beginning for decades with the Palestinians. That\u2019s all changed under [Narendra] Modi. And you really attribute that to the arms trade.<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n The arms trade is definitely part of that. You say, traditionally India, which is now the biggest country in the world population-wise, run by what I would call a Hindu fundamentalist as Modi and his party, the\u00a0BJP<\/a>, that arms was a major factor.<\/p>\n India is one of the biggest purchasers of Israeli weapons. But in fact, I think it\u2019s more than that. It\u2019s not just weapons. Yes, votes at the UN have shifted like it was with Mexico when Israel sold Pegasus to Mexico. Their votes shifted at the UN when there was a vote coming up about Israel-Palestine. India was similar.<\/p>\n But I actually think with India it\u2019s quite a unique example and this is really the danger that I see Israel presenting. Israel is, has always been, but is becoming more and more the model for the global far right. India has a far right fundamentalist Hindu population, Modi is its head, the far right in Europe from Sweden to France to Germany and elsewhere, they see Israel as their model, an ethno-nationalist wet dream.<\/p>\n It is against multiculturalism, against diversity, against gay rights. It\u2019s against Muslims, it\u2019s against immigration. That\u2019s what Israel represents. It\u2019s a model. I mean, just look at the last month. Israel itself invited as an official guest\u00a0Tommy Robinson<\/a>, a far-right thug from the UK, to show him the glories of Israel, that he take that message back to Britain. It\u2019s not, I mean, that relationship on the one hand might seem ridiculous.<\/p>\n How could a Jewish state embrace someone who hates Islam. In fact, it makes perfect sense, right? Because they both in some ways are white nationalists. This is the danger. And India represents that. India under Modi admires Israel\u2019s ethno-nationalism and its racism and vice versa. And I say in the film that it really reminded me of Israel\u2019s relationship with apartheid South Africa, where at the time it was a defense relationship. They were selling weapons and arms, but it was also an ideological relationship. They admired each other\u2019s racism.<\/p>\n South Africa\u2019s racism against Blacks and in Israel\u2019s racism against Arabs and Muslims, principally of Palestinians. So I see that as a profound danger that Israel represents. And in fact, the last two years of genocide has accelerated that love that many in the far right have for Israel. They dream of doing something like that to their minority populations, to their Muslim populations and others in their own countries.<\/p>\n And it\u2019s why many of these far-right groups in, as I said, Sweden, France, England, Australia, look to Israel as a model. They don\u2019t want to create a Jewish ethnostate in their own borders. They want to create a Christian ethnostate. And they say it openly and proudly. And rather than rejecting it, Israel in fact welcomes it. They embrace it. And that to me, I see that as one of the great dangers of our age. I really do. That Israel as a model for the global far-right, it\u2019s real and it\u2019s worsening.<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n Let\u2019s close by talking about Germany. That\u2019s Israel\u2019s second largest arms supplier. You\u2019ve just made a film about Germany. Germany has been perhaps the most draconian of the European countries in terms of shutting down dissent to the genocide and people who speak up on behalf of the Palestinians.<\/p>\n Antony Loewenstein<\/strong><\/p>\n I made a film recently called\u00a0Germany\u2019s Israel Obsession<\/a><\/em>\u00a0with\u00a0Black Leaf Films<\/a>, which is a production company in the UK and was on Al Jazeera. People can find it online on YouTube. And I\u2019m a German citizen, although I\u2019m an Australian, I\u2019m also a German citizen and obviously I\u2019m Jewish. And that wasn\u2019t the primary reason I wanted to make the film, but I only mention that because there\u2019s something about how Germany and the German elites, both political and media elites, Chris, are dealing with this issue \u2014 Palestine, which has been frankly a problem long before October 7th, but it\u2019s got a lot worse.<\/p>\n So what do I mean by that? They, these elites and many in the German public, are taking their historical guilt for the genocide against the Jews, a justified guilt of course, considering my family was also killed in the Holocaust, but transferring that now to Arabs, to Muslims, to Palestinians, to refugees.<\/p>\n And they believe that the way that you atone for your former crimes is to support new crimes committed by Israel. So you have in Germany now profound crackdowns, police violence against activists, principally directed at Arabs and Muslims and Palestinians, but also Jewish critics, Jewish anti-Zionists.<\/p>\n You have huge amounts of mainstream media led by Bild, the conservative far-right outlet run by\u00a0[Axel] Springer<\/a>\u00a0targeting anyone who\u2019s critical of Israel. You have a German elite, as you say, who support and arm the Israeli state. And this is, by the way, across the board. This includes not the far left, but even the so-called mainstream left.<\/p>\n The German Greens, who historically actually were quite good on many issues, have fallen to the same track. We see it as our responsibility, we must support Israel. I mean, Germany on the one hand is an exception, but it\u2019s also a warning. And what I mean by that is that you see in country after country, look at the UK under Keir Starmer, prescribing Palestine Action, a non-violent peaceful activist group, as a terrorist organisation akin to ISIS.<\/p>\n I mean, it\u2019s insane. And you see it in country after country, the US trying to target peaceful pro-Palestine protesters. In my country, Australia, more and more protests and pro-Palestine voices are being silenced. So on one level, the film was trying to show that Germany is becoming and is an increasingly authoritarian place. Palestine is always a litmus test on this.<\/p>\n And what worries me in a way is that what it\u2019s doing in Germany is empowering the far right. We talked about the far right, the\u00a0AfD<\/a>\u00a0there, which is now the biggest opposition party in the country. Their vision for Germany is a deeply authoritarian, racist future. Muslims would be kicked out. So-called they believe in this concept of remigration, which is kicking people out who have been living in Germany for years, some of them would be even citizens.<\/p>\n And by supporting Israel so blindly, Chris, they actually are empowering the far right. There\u2019s no question about that, which is directed principally at the moment at Muslims and Palestinians and Arabs, but inevitably to Jews as well. Inevitably it comes to Jews too, it always does. So the film really is an investigation and a warning to say to people, if you think that attacking peaceful pro-Palestine sentiment is somehow acceptable in a democracy in this kind of way, believe me, it doesn\u2019t stop with Palestine.<\/p>\n It ends up talking about the climate or whatever other issue it may be, vital questions. And I see this in country after country. So the film came out a few months ago. It\u2019s had an amazing response and made a lot of people realise, thank you for showing this reality in a nation that I think many in the West.<\/p>\n Certainly this is when I spoke to my friends before the film came out, and had no idea of the level of repression going on in a so-called civilised western state. So it\u2019s another light film, Chris, that I\u2019ve made.<\/p>\n Chris Hedges<\/strong><\/p>\n We have the grandchildren of Nazis arresting Jewish activists and charging them as anti-Semites. I don\u2019t know what world that comes out of. Thanks very much, Antony. And I want to thank Diego [Ramos] and Thomas [Hedges], Sofia [Menemenlis] and Max [Jones], who produced the show. You can find me at\u00a0ChrisHedges.Substack.com<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n
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